Defenses need fixing

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Tetron
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Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:19 am

Defenses need fixing

Postby Tetron » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:31 am

Defense structures need a massive overhaul. Right now building defenses makes people more likely to attack you not less and that means the mechanics behind it are broken. The first fix I can think of is to remove all point values from destroyed defensive structures. No glory and no PVP would at least help a little. This fix needs to be implemented and the whole concept of defenses needs to be reworked. Building fortifications should not make your enemies more likely to attack you.

PrincessLily
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Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:46 pm

Re: Defenses need fixing

Postby PrincessLily » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:12 pm

I get your idea, and I fully support it. The defenses as they currently stand are useless.
But maybe removing PvP point values isn't the way to go

What needs to happen is that rapid fire must be added to the defenses. That way, like ships, they can hold their own in a fight.

I understood the previous reason for not giving defenses RF, that being the defenses will instantly resurrect about 1/3 of the previous amount after a battle for free. But now, with the dirt cheap fleet repair technology, the same can be done with ships.

Tetron
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Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:19 am

Re: Defenses need fixing

Postby Tetron » Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:11 am

The other solution that occurs to me is what if defenses concentrate fire instead of spread it out. They targe the weakest ship type and kill them off one at a time until they run out of damage. This way you will always loose ships of you attack a planet with defenses but it's predictable which ones you loose so you can gage the value of the attack.

litlwillie
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Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:01 pm

Re: Defenses need fixing

Postby litlwillie » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:23 am

Iagree. :D I don't waist res on planetary defenses that seem to be worthless. Rapid fire would be a good thing as would targeting changes. I think the concept is planetary defenses plus a large fleet. However, fleet saving is my strategy. Let the enemy have what little res I've left.

adam3196
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:34 pm

Re: Defenses need fixing

Postby adam3196 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:43 pm

I agree, I have now completely stopped all building of defenses, with exception of one a day to finish daily achievement, but in all honesty defenses should be stronger than ships. Think in war times thru out the ages, fortification always was hard to overcome, from walled city's, to castles, To the modern bunkering down tactics still used today. The idea of being protected while firing on an exposed enemy is an ancient one. With both a small shield and large shield the defensed should be near invincible. The shielding should be harder to get. And it should be way more affective. Not saying a defended planet couldn't be taken but it should take a beating and enemy should lose a lot of ships. common game developers think about WW2 and how many men America would lose just to take a simply fortified Island. A few hundred men could kill thousands. Same thing on the beaches of Normandy.
Allies bombarded fortifications constantly and sent bomber to little affect. It took many men on the ground loosing their lives to slowly take the ground they wanted. Everybody can out do the other person eventually. The germans had big bertha. They took the French fortifications quickly. but only because they had the biggest guns ever made.

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boardwalk
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Re: Defenses need fixing

Postby boardwalk » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:59 pm

I don't agree that defenses are entirely useless. Except for rockets. Never buy rockets.

A fleet of any size versus an equal number of plasma turrets would certainly lose. Turrets live almost as long as destroyers, yet have 50% higher damage. Since there would be no RF in either direction, the attacker would need a fleet full of destroyers about 50% bigger than the "fleet" of turrets, just to even the sides. Obviously, this is an extreme example, and an unlikely scenario because...

The real problem with spending on strong defenses is that money could have gone to building strong fleets, or upgrades, or anything else. Defenses will not gain you nearly as much res nor as many points as ships. (They "gain" you res in the form of protecting your storage. If you stave off an attack with defenses, they effectively gained you one less setback.) They do cost less than ships in general, but not enough less to counter-balance what you might have gained with more ships instead. Blah blah opportunity cost blah.

I would say defenses are very good in the early game versus other players who are also in the early game, and are also good for preventing free farming. A small shield by itself will stop all-cargo fleets. A shield with a few other defenses will stop a mostly-cargo fleet with only a few combat ships. I think it's worth spending a little bit in defense to force attackers to send legitimate attack fleets. Through the early game, continuing to add to defenses a little over time will likely keep you low on your early game opponents' target list.

Possibly a minor point of discussion, since players could just use DM to overcome it, is the economy of time. Say you can send three fleets at separate targets who each have 100k res to steal. What if all of those targets built up their defenses? Now you have to consolidate your fleets to overcome the imbalance, and can only attack two of those targets. In the same amount of time you might have gained 300k, you only gain 200k. Your opponents' ability to defend directly affects your profit per duration. Furthermore, as the value of your time so decreases, the value of your opponents' time inherently increases, as it requires less of their time to respond. The question is whether such a value increase is more or less than the value of spending on something other than defenses. Play style and general gaming habits would also affect this comparison.

I do agree that, assuming you can always keep all your res off-world and still attack effectively, you probably don't need defenses. In this case, you are probably beyond the early game. You save up your res in space, drop it when and where it's needed, and run your attack fleets separately. It doesn't matter how good defenses might get, since you can always fleetsave everything. Maybe keep a shield and a few cannons just to shut down free harvests while you're offline. The points you gain from your attacks vastly overcome the minor losses from just a few defenses.

So, what is really needed to "fix" defenses to make them useful overall, and worth the expense? I think we need to first consider their purpose as is. I think there are two descriptions that cover it: to protect resources and to assist defending fleets.

Consider any time you might respond to an incoming attack by grounding a fleet. If this is something you are interested in doing often, defenses are worth a look. For the same cost as your fleet, you could have more than twice the firepower. Obviously, you need to have ships to do much of anything interesting, so you can balance ships with defenses. EXAMPLE: The attacking fleet obviously expects to overcome your defenses, else they would not have come. The disparity between the attack and the defense can be changed in your favor by dropping a fleet. Had you spent the defenses' cost on ships, the fleet alone would not have been enough, as the damage output by cost is lower for ships. This is circumstantial, of course, but having good knowledge of these thresholds puts you at an advantage when intending to react by defending with fleets.

As for defending resources, defenses alone are not enough, unless you play a very passive game of all defense and no ships such that you can maintain ridiculous numbers of defenses. I have to wonder if that was the intent: that defenses are to be a supplement to responding to incoming attacks with your fleets, else you play passively. If so, costs and damage outputs are rather balanced, I think. Otherwise, I certainly understand that people feel something is lacking. Simply changing the numbers is probably not the answer. You get more defense damage (with either higher DPS, or RF, or lower cost), I just add more ships to my attack, and we're in the same place as before. It wouldn't even alter the resource sink; money saved on defense would just get invested in ships.

To make defenses more interesting or useful, I think new mechanics would need to be developed that derive more in-depth strategy than "my numbers are bigger than yours, so I win." Alongside such developments, ships would change as well to maintain balance. Unfortunately, this probably floats the same boat as any desire for fleetsaving to change. I would presume that future changes to the game will come only in the form of new ways to use the mechanics we already have; that is, new competitions, events, etc. The current mechanics have run for a solid decade in OGame. Regardless, I'll still continue to hope that pandering to the mobile market is important enough that we do eventually see overhauls that send GaW up the charts.

Talizorah
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Re: Defenses need fixing

Postby Talizorah » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:48 pm

I think this issue might be helped in a way if a defense research tech was created. This tech could perhaps help improve the base stats of defenses armor and shields, to help make them more effective. Rapidfire would certainly help, and I don't think there really has been a solid explanation on why they do not have rapid-fire, save a player can more easily create lots of defensive units per unit produced of ships.

Perhaps even adding blueprints for a new type of advance large shield and turrets, which can compete with large fleets and new ships like the missile chaser.

Suisfonia
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Re: Defenses need fixing

Postby Suisfonia » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:16 pm

Frankly I've been on the receiving end of a player with five hundred destroyers, and me having four hundred plasma turrets, three hundred gauss cannons, three hundred ion cannons, seven hundred heavy lasers, eight thousand light lasers and eight thousand rocket launchers oh and one small/large shield. (why the heck are we even LIMITED to just one? Seems rather silly to me)

The end result? My defenses decimated, and the player flies away with my resources. Now, maybe this was just a fluke of some kind but I honestly don't think the system takes your armor, weapons, and shield research into actual account even though the shipyards build panel claims to.

One way I feel this could be fixed would be to add rapid fire to them. For example:

1. Rocket Launchers, being the weakling defenses, could have a rapid fire against light fighters.

2. Light/Heavy lasers can have a rapid against light, heavy and even cruisers.

3. Gauss Cannon, being what I think are the middle ground, can have rapid fire against cruisers and battleships, maybe even bombers.

4. Ion Cannons are there to 'disable' stuff, that's the whole point of an ion cannon so maybe instead of a rapid fire they have the ability to disable the ship they are firing on (thus eliminating its attack, and making it rather vulnerable.)

5. Plasma Turret are the 'high end' defenses I feel, with this they could have a considerable rapid fire ability, allowing them to hit cruisers, battleships, bombers, missile cruisers, dreadnaughts and destroyers.

ALL of the defenses however should have a rapid fire against the Death Star.. let's face it, that thing is HUGE and very slow thus it makes sense for ships and defenses to be able to constantly bombard it. Granted, this might reduce its usefulness in an offensive operation.

But lets face it, again, defenses are intended to be your last line of protection if your fleet is destroyed 'or' if you don't have a fleet. Bombers in particular shouldn't be able to even get CLOSE to a planet to be able to bombard it if there is a fleet in orbit which means the defenses have a longer chance of survival and thus able to out the opposing ships.

Now, onward to shields. As I mentioned earlier.. why the heck are we limited to just 'one' of each shield? It really doesn't make sense.

These small and large shields should be able to protect an area of defenses and provide additional defense bonus's for defenses. Maybe a limit of five would be better, not to mention but the shields themselves should be the first things to be 'hit', not the defenses that are under them as the shields are there to protect those defenses.. once the shields are gone then the defenses are fairgame.

One game I play on my computer allowed me to set up my defenses on planet however I want, including places planetary defenses near defense structures (like shield generators), perhaps one way to can make it more.. strategic.. is to add that kind of an interference that allows you to place your defenses on a grid along with the small/large shield generator(s) this allows you to put your more important defenses, like plasma and gauss cannons, under the shield envelopes and the weaker stuff - like rockets, lasers, and maybe even in the ions, outside of the shield.

This would add another level of importance to having these defensive structures.

PS: Yes I know I probably just necro'd this, but I felt since this was on the front page there was no reason for me to make a new topic about the very thing I wanted to talk about.

Tux
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Re: Defenses need fixing

Postby Tux » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:28 pm

I think you guys are asking way too much. The attention to the masses playing this game seem to be on the last drop of brain matter in the furthest reaches of the devs. Minds. Money, it's pure and simple. Protect those with 800 death stars and 100k destroyers. And make events to use the weak as fodder. Def. Mean nothing to the super power users.

adam3196
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Re: Defenses need fixing

Postby adam3196 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:05 am

I have currently been changing my tactics temporarily. I now use some def. But Game overhaul on them is very much needed. Shields first. Come on shields are hit first on the ships. then Shields are reset each time. Shields on Planets make so little difference its like why use them. And haven't you all watched any scifi shows planetary def by advance civilization can easily out class whole armadas of advanced ships. A ships power is limited by one factor always. Given the same tech lvl is owned by both party's. A planet's size Way out classes the ships. Therefore more energy devices can be held and connected on a planet than a ship. Weapon size would also have same issues. therefore a Ion cannon on a ship or a shield on a ship could never equal that of a planets. Watch Stargate, Startrek ect. Only by espionage or superior tech can this issue be overcome. The game should at least try to come to some close realization of this in some way. I personally think a RF option would be the simplest fix to even the odds. And to add to a previous post on RF on ion cannon. Maybe no RF would be needed But a IMP is not fixed it is dispersed and should knock out multiple targets. smaller more congested target should be most affected while lesser for large targets that would have to be more dispersed in space. I hope this issue is one of the first approached by game developers.


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